IIRC, there is a gorund up on the drivers side of the firewall for that.
leastthere is on the Americans.
make sure the paint is gone from under the ground lead rings and it is clean.
I've also seen the same condition from a poor engine to body ground strap.
Try using a jumper lead from the battery ground to touch the ground points with the key on.
Have someone watch the lights and see when they come on.

--
Mark Price
Morgantown, WV
1969 AMC Rambler, 4.0L, EFI, T-5
2004 Grand Cherokee Laredo, 4.7L, Quadratrc II
" Chronic Pain Hurts"

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Ted Dooling"
> Hi,
>
> Would anyone know the wire gage for the fusible link from the battery terminal
> of the starter relay to the main wire harness for my 71 Gremlin 232?
>
> I have had grounding issues since purchasing the car 2 years ago, but after
> painting the car I now have no electrical. Battery is good though because the
> bypass switches previously installed for the starter and wipers still allow the
> starter turn over and the wipers to turn on, just no alt light, dash lights,
> etc.
>
> Thanks you
> Ted D
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The 71 TSM says "hypalon insulated 20 gauge copper wire only". You might want to replace it with an in-line 30A fuse and regular wire. At least I think 30A would be enough (and not too much). Of course you can start with a 20A and replace it with a 30A if it turns out to be a problem.

-----------------
From: "Ted Dooling"
Subject: [Amc-list] Fusible Link wire gage size

Would anyone know the wire gage for the fusible link from the battery terminal of the starter relay to the main wire harness for my 71 Gremlin 232?

I have had grounding issues since purchasing the car 2 years ago, but after painting the car I now have no electrical. Battery is good though because the bypass switches previously installed for the starter and wipers still allow the starter turn over and the wipers to turn on, just no alt light, dash lights, etc.

--
Frank Swygert
Publisher, "American Motors Cars"
Magazine (AMC)
For all AMC enthusiasts
http://farna.home.att.net/AMC.html
(free download available!)

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I've wondered how to relate/translate fuse links to fuses.
I never cared much for fuse links, too much hassle to change out and the sparking that can occur should the end drop and touch a ground just seems a little unneeded to me!
Those big ole fuses we have nowadays seem to me to be a better idea.

--
Mark Price
Morgantown, WV
1969 AMC Rambler, 4.0L, EFI, T-5
2004 Grand Cherokee Laredo, 4.7L, Quadratrc II
" Chronic Pain Hurts"

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Frank Swygert
> The 71 TSM says "hypalon insulated 20 gauge copper wire only". You might want to
> replace it with an in-line 30A fuse and regular wire. At least I think 30A would
> be enough (and not too much). Of course you can start with a 20A and replace it
> with a 30A if it turns out to be a problem.
>
> -----------------
> From: "Ted Dooling"
> Subject: [Amc-list] Fusible Link wire gage size
>
> Would anyone know the wire gage for the fusible link from the battery terminal
> of the starter relay to the main wire harness for my 71 Gremlin 232?
>
> I have had grounding issues since purchasing the car 2 years ago, but after
> painting the car I now have no electrical. Battery is good though because the
> bypass switches previously installed for the starter and wipers still allow the
> starter turn over and the wipers to turn on, just no alt light, dash lights,
> etc.
>
> --
> Frank Swygert
> Publisher, "American Motors Cars"
> Magazine (AMC)
> For all AMC enthusiasts
> http://farna.home.att.net/AMC.html
> (free download available!)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Amc-list mailing list
> Amc-list at amc-list dot com
> http://splatter.wps.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/amc-list

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Wrambler242 at comcast dot net wrote:
> I've wondered how to relate/translate fuse links to fuses.

They're supposed to be a last resort, 'pop fusible link instead of start
a fire' eg. in a fender-bender that pinches a harness. They're usually
in things that don't have a variable-load or user-access function, like
ignition, alternator, etc. For things with motors that might stall
(wiper, fan) or user access (changed headlamp, tail lamps, etc) there's
a fuse.

Headlamps are generally special too, they get a self-resetting circuit
breaker (like a flasher) since they're so mission-critical at night; a
partial short gives you blinking dim headlights and MAYBE a melted
harness, which beats instant darkness and a crash.

If they go bad from anything other than extreme age (eg. corroded
crimps, etc) it indicates a severe problem or 'user error' eg. putting a
60 amp alternator where a 20 amp generator used to be, etc.
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Thanks for the input. Since I was told by Frank S the TSM says: "hypalon insulated 20 gauge copper wire only", that helps. I'll either use 20 gauge or possibly 20A, 30A fuse. Thank you Frank, Mark and Tom for your replies.

I did manage to get it running last night. It turns out when I painted the engine compartment I pushed the wiring harness away from the fender which separated the power coming from the starter sol to the harness. It had been re-wired by the previous owner and the fusible link was eliminated. I'll be putting something back in today. It was just a thin gauge wire hand twisted to the power wire on the harness then covered with electrical tape. Worked good for years until I decided to touch it!

Ted
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BTW, if you put a fusible link back in, *do not* solder it. Soldering it
will melt the wire. The proper way to fix it is to crimp it on and use
heat shrink tubing to seal it. When you shrink the tube, use a low heat
setting.

Matt

On 7/24/2008 7:31 AM, Ted Dooling spouted this sage advice:
> Thanks for the input. Since I was told by Frank S the TSM says: "hypalon insulated 20 gauge copper wire only", that helps. I'll either use 20 gauge or possibly 20A, 30A fuse. Thank you Frank, Mark and Tom for your replies.
>
> I did manage to get it running last night. It turns out when I painted the engine compartment I pushed the wiring harness away from the fender which separated the power coming from the starter sol to the harness. It had been re-wired by the previous owner and the fusible link was eliminated. I'll be putting something back in today. It was just a thin gauge wire hand twisted to the power wire on the harness then covered with electrical tape. Worked good for years until I decided to touch it!
>
> Ted
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
>

--
mhaas at one dot net
Cincinnati, OH
http://www.mattsoldcars.com
1967 Rambler American wagon
1968 Rambler American sedan
=================================================================
According to a February 2003 survey of Internet holdouts released
by UCLA's Center for Communication Policy, people cite
not having a computer as the No. 1 reason they won't go online.
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that's a nuther reason I do not like fusible links...

--
Mark Price
Morgantown, WV
1969 AMC Rambler, 4.0L, EFI, T-5
2004 Grand Cherokee Laredo, 4.7L, Quadratrc II
" Chronic Pain Hurts"

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Matt Haas
> BTW, if you put a fusible link back in, *do not* solder it. Soldering it
> will melt the wire. The proper way to fix it is to crimp it on and use
> heat shrink tubing to seal it. When you shrink the tube, use a low heat
> setting.
>
> Matt
>
> On 7/24/2008 7:31 AM, Ted Dooling spouted this sage advice:
> > Thanks for the input. Since I was told by Frank S the TSM says: "hypalon
> insulated 20 gauge copper wire only", that helps. I'll either use 20 gauge or
> possibly 20A, 30A fuse. Thank you Frank, Mark and Tom for your replies.
> >
> > I did manage to get it running last night. It turns out when I painted the
> engine compartment I pushed the wiring harness away from the fender which
> separated the power coming from the starter sol to the harness. It had been
> re-wired by the previous owner and the fusible link was eliminated. I'll be
> putting something back in today. It was just a thin gauge wire hand twisted to
> the power wire on the harness then covered with electrical tape. Worked good for
> years until I decided to touch it!
> >
> > Ted
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL:
> http://splatter.wps.com/pipermail/amc-list/attachments/20080724/2f159446/attachm
> ent.htm
> > _______________________________________________
> > Amc-list mailing list
> > Amc-list at amc-list dot com
> > http://splatter.wps.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> mhaas at one dot net
> Cincinnati, OH
> http://www.mattsoldcars.com
> 1967 Rambler American wagon
> 1968 Rambler American sedan
> =================================================================
> According to a February 2003 survey of Internet holdouts released
> by UCLA's Center for Communication Policy, people cite
> not having a computer as the No. 1 reason they won't go online.
> _______________________________________________
> Amc-list mailing list
> Amc-list at amc-list dot com
> http://splatter.wps.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/amc-list

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> BTW, if you put a fusible link back in, *do not* solder it. Soldering
> it will melt the wire. The proper way to fix it is to crimp it on and
> use heat shrink tubing to seal it.

Ok I'll bite...
What kind of soldering iron are you using, that will melt copper
wire? Time to put away your blow torches!

Soldering will not melt the wire...

There is a reason that crimping is preferred though.
Soldering tends to produce a very stiff section of wire, which
when subjected to a lot of vibration (like every engine bay
has!) is prone to metal fatigue and breaking.

Crimped connections are the way to go,
but not due to melted wires....

Dave
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Fusible links are not standard copper wire. The way they work is when
the system overloads, it creates heat and melts the wire (pretty much
the same way a fuse works). Soldering irons get much hotter than the
temperature they melt at so its easy to melt the wire trying to solder
it in.

Matt

On 7/26/2008 8:51 PM, David Crooks spouted this sage advice:
> > BTW, if you put a fusible link back in, *do not* solder it. Soldering
> > it will melt the wire. The proper way to fix it is to crimp it on and
> > use heat shrink tubing to seal it.
>
> Ok I'll bite...
> What kind of soldering iron are you using, that will melt copper
> wire? Time to put away your blow torches!
>
> Soldering will not melt the wire...
>
> There is a reason that crimping is preferred though.
> Soldering tends to produce a very stiff section of wire, which
> when subjected to a lot of vibration (like every engine bay
> has!) is prone to metal fatigue and breaking.
>
> Crimped connections are the way to go,
> but not due to melted wires....
>
> Dave

--
mhaas at one dot net
Cincinnati, OH
http://www.mattsoldcars.com
1967 Rambler American wagon
1968 Rambler American sedan
=================================================================
According to a February 2003 survey of Internet holdouts released
by UCLA's Center for Communication Policy, people cite
not having a computer as the No. 1 reason they won't go online.
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Also, the insulation is not your standard plastic. The 'Hypalon' doesn't melt
like the usual stuff. Most of it stays on the wire.

Ken

Quoting Matt Haas :

>
> Fusible links are not standard copper wire. The way they work is when
> the system overloads, it creates heat and melts the wire (pretty much
> the same way a fuse works). Soldering irons get much hotter than the
> temperature they melt at so its easy to melt the wire trying to solder
> it in.
>
> Matt
>
> On 7/26/2008 8:51 PM, David Crooks spouted this sage advice:
> > > BTW, if you put a fusible link back in, *do not* solder it. Soldering
> > > it will melt the wire. The proper way to fix it is to crimp it on and
> > > use heat shrink tubing to seal it.
> >
> > Ok I'll bite...
> > What kind of soldering iron are you using, that will melt copper
> > wire? Time to put away your blow torches!
> >
> > Soldering will not melt the wire...
> >
> > There is a reason that crimping is preferred though.
> > Soldering tends to produce a very stiff section of wire, which
> > when subjected to a lot of vibration (like every engine bay
> > has!) is prone to metal fatigue and breaking.
> >
> > Crimped connections are the way to go,
> > but not due to melted wires....
> >
> > Dave
>
> --
> mhaas at one dot net
> Cincinnati, OH
> http://www.mattsoldcars.com
> 1967 Rambler American wagon
> 1968 Rambler American sedan
> =================================================================
> According to a February 2003 survey of Internet holdouts released
> by UCLA's Center for Communication Policy, people cite
> not having a computer as the No. 1 reason they won't go online.
> _______________________________________________
> Amc-list mailing list
> Amc-list at amc-list dot com
> http://splatter.wps.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
>

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> Fusible links are not standard copper wire. The way they work is when
> the system overloads, it creates heat and melts the wire (pretty much
> the same way a fuse works).

This isn't my experience...

The fusible links I've seen are all normal copper, but sized at least
4 awg
gauges smaller than the wire they are intended to protect. That way
they
heat up and burn out, before the rest of the harness.

The difference is the insulation, which is thicker, and able to
withstand
much higher temperatures. Also sometimes the wire is made of thiner
strands.

Here's a link to one supplier who recommends soldering:
http://www.madelectrical.com/catalog/fusible-link.shtml

Personally, I don't recommend soldering due to stiff wires and metal
fatigue, but I'm not aware of any special metallurgy being used...

YMMV, Dave
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Yeah, what a combo! Low heat wire wrapped in high heat plastic insulation, so you can't find the @#$%#$%^ melted wire without a TSM or wiring diagram showing where it is!! I just never figured out how that beat an easy to find and replace fuse... maybe the "easy to replace" part. I bet some idiot would blow a 30A fuseand stick a paper clip in it "just to get home" and raost the wiring harness. With the fusible link it's a bit more idiot proof... (answers my question good enough!!)

----------------
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 18:45:42 -0600
From: Ken Ames

Also, the insulation is not your standard plastic. The 'Hypalon' doesn't melt
like the usual stuff. Most of it stays on the wire.

--
Frank Swygert
Publisher, "American Motors Cars"
Magazine (AMC)
For all AMC enthusiasts
http://farna.home.att.net/AMC.html
(free download available!)

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I never liked them either, just a plain PIA to find, fix and insulate the crimp connection.
NO matter how well the replacement went in I did not and do not trust them once replace.
Now, If I had to deal with one, I'd go to a fuse.
Lucky for me the Jeep underhood harness I ran came with a complet PCM unit that is totally fused.
There are no fuse links in the American.

--
Mark Price
Morgantown, WV
1969 AMC Rambler, 4.0L, EFI, T-5
2004 Grand Cherokee Laredo, 4.7L, Quadratrc II
" Chronic Pain Hurts"

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: farna at att dot net
> Yeah, what a combo! Low heat wire wrapped in high heat plastic insulation, so
> you can't find the @#$%#$%^ melted wire without a TSM or wiring diagram showing
> where it is!! I just never figured out how that beat an easy to find and replace
> fuse... maybe the "easy to replace" part. I bet some idiot would blow a 30A
> fuseand stick a paper clip in it "just to get home" and raost the wiring
> harness. With the fusible link it's a bit more idiot proof... (answers my
> question good enough!!)
>
>
> ----------------
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 18:45:42 -0600
> From: Ken Ames
>
> Also, the insulation is not your standard plastic. The 'Hypalon' doesn't melt
> like the usual stuff. Most of it stays on the wire.
>
> --
> Frank Swygert
> Publisher, "American Motors Cars"
> Magazine (AMC)
> For all AMC enthusiasts
> http://farna.home.att.net/AMC.html
> (free download available!)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Amc-list mailing list
> Amc-list at amc-list dot com
> http://splatter.wps.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/amc-list

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I test them by gently pulling on the wire at either end of the link. If it stretches, then it's 90% likely it's burnt out!

Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10

From: farna at att dot net
Subject: Re: [Amc-list] usible Link wire gage size
To: amc-list at amc-list dot com
Message-ID:

Yeah, what a combo! Low heat wire wrapped in high heat plastic insulation, so you can't find the @#$%#$%^ melted wire without a TSM or wiring diagram showing where it is!! I just never figured out how that beat an easy to find and replace fuse... maybe the "easy to replace" part. I bet some idiot would blow a 30A fuseand stick a paper clip in it "just to get home" and raost the wiring harness. With the fusible link it's a bit more idiot proof... (answers my question good enough!!)

_________________________________________________________________
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>From: farna at att dot net
>maybe the "easy to replace" part. I bet some idiot would blow a 30A fuseand stick a paper clip in >it "just to get home" and raost the wiring harness. With the fusible link it's a bit more idiot >proof... (answers my question good enough!!)

My grandfather used to own a auto repair shop. One time my parents took their car to him to have something fixed (my mom is disabled and didn't drive so it was my dad that always did stuff like fuse replacements). Well. my grandfather came in just fuming about my dads choice of replacement fuses. Nearly every fuse in the fuse box (this was on an old car with the glass tube fuses) had blown and as they blew my dad either wrapped a piece of foil around it and popped it back in or shoved a piece of coat hanger wire in the slot. My grandfather told him not to ever do anything that stupid again.

Jamie Smith
Spokane, WA
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Foil was common.
Never saw the coat hanger one.
For the most part foil would still work like a fuse.
it has no real strength and would burn out again, now at what amp that occured would depend on how many layers of foil was in place.
Not very scientific, but hey, it's just an "old car"....

--
Mark Price
Morgantown, WV
1969 AMC Rambler, 4.0L, EFI, T-5
2004 Grand Cherokee Laredo, 4.7L, Quadratrc II
" Chronic Pain Hurts"

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Jamie Smith"
>
>
> >From: farna at att dot net
> >maybe the "easy to replace" part. I bet some idiot would blow a 30A fuseand
> stick a paper clip in >it "just to get home" and raost the wiring harness. With
> the fusible link it's a bit more idiot >proof... (answers my question good
> enough!!)
>
>
> My grandfather used to own a auto repair shop. One time my parents took their
> car to him to have something fixed (my mom is disabled and didn't drive so it
> was my dad that always did stuff like fuse replacements). Well. my grandfather
> came in just fuming about my dads choice of replacement fuses. Nearly every fuse
> in the fuse box (this was on an old car with the glass tube fuses) had blown and
> as they blew my dad either wrapped a piece of foil around it and popped it back
> in or shoved a piece of coat hanger wire in the slot. My grandfather told him
> not to ever do anything that stupid again.
>
> Jamie Smith
> Spokane, WA
> -------------- next part --------------
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My understanding was that wire in the fusible link is smaller than
the wire on the circuit it is designed to protect, so the link fails
before the wire. The Hypalon insulation is designed to contain the
melting wire in a failure, but I don't think there is anything
special about the copper in the wire.

This reference states that the conductor in the fusible link is
usually four wire sizes smaller than the circuit wire.
http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/hweb1.pdf

--Glen

At 07:45 PM 7/27/2008, Ken Ames wrote:
>Also, the insulation is not your standard plastic. The 'Hypalon' doesn't melt
>like the usual stuff. Most of it stays on the wire.
>
>Ken
>
>Quoting Matt Haas :
>
> >
> > Fusible links are not standard copper wire. The way they work is when
> > the system overloads, it creates heat and melts the wire (pretty much
> > the same way a fuse works). Soldering irons get much hotter than the
> > temperature they melt at so its easy to melt the wire trying to solder
> > it in.
> >
> > Matt
> >
> > On 7/26/2008 8:51 PM, David Crooks spouted this sage advice:
> > > > BTW, if you put a fusible link back in, *do not* solder it. Soldering
> > > > it will melt the wire. The proper way to fix it is to crimp it on and
> > > > use heat shrink tubing to seal it.
> > >
> > > Ok I'll bite...
> > > What kind of soldering iron are you using, that will melt copper
> > > wire? Time to put away your blow torches!
> > >
> > > Soldering will not melt the wire...
> > >
> > > There is a reason that crimping is preferred though.
> > > Soldering tends to produce a very stiff section of wire, which
> > > when subjected to a lot of vibration (like every engine bay
> > > has!) is prone to metal fatigue and breaking.
> > >
> > > Crimped connections are the way to go,
> > > but not due to melted wires....
> > >
> > > Dave

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My main peeve with them is that fact that I've seen way more than one of them burn thru, melt aware the insulation to the point it was a black crusty mess. Exposing the bare wires that remained.
I much prefer the newer fuses that contain the blowout in a safer manner.

--
Mark Price
Morgantown, WV
1969 AMC Rambler, 4.0L, EFI, T-5
2004 Grand Cherokee Laredo, 4.7L, Quadratrc II
" Chronic Pain Hurts"

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Glen Hoag
> My understanding was that wire in the fusible link is smaller than
> the wire on the circuit it is designed to protect, so the link fails
> before the wire. The Hypalon insulation is designed to contain the
> melting wire in a failure, but I don't think there is anything
> special about the copper in the wire.
>
> This reference states that the conductor in the fusible link is
> usually four wire sizes smaller than the circuit wire.
> http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/hweb1.pdf
>
> --Glen
>

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