T-96 woes (again)
OfflineCrap, I lost my 2nd gear synchro! I have no idea how it happened. Never
crashed it, in/out of gear w/o clutch, I shift slowly enough, etc. No
warning. Just a gentle downshift at 25 mph or so, GRIND GRIND, clutch in
Neutral, still grinds. Works OK at rest or if I rev-match.
I neglected to check the mainshaft stack clearance when I assembled it;
I know it's on the loose side. The 2 - 3 synchro was slow, till is, but
still works.
Very strange. I assume I screwed something up on assembly. All new
parts, clean. Too thin oil though, that was a stupid experiment. I dont'
see how that alone would have done this.
If the brass dogs broke off, they didn't jam anything, so I'll drive it
carefully, and if it's tolerable, well, I'll just drive it. Shift 1 - 2
and 2 - 3 are OK, for now anyways.
I know this is not the T-96's fault, but with all the hassles finding
parts I just may have to lose the Twin Stick -- boo hoo! -- and stick
something in the hole that's worth the effort. For the money I spent I
could have bought a good T5 and new adapter!
Part of me hates to not fix it though, it just feels like giving up. I
hope I have time to mull it over though!
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Tom Jennings wrote:
> Crap, I lost my 2nd gear synchro!
Eh. I think it's just stuck. I did something wrong with the !@!#@$%!
mainshaft on assembly I assume. Grumble.
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Hope you can fix it! I can't even imagine getting to that level.
On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 3:41 AM, Tom Jennings wrote:
> Tom Jennings wrote:
>> Crap, I lost my 2nd gear synchro!
>
> Eh. I think it's just stuck. I did something wrong with the !@!#@$%!
> mainshaft on assembly I assume. Grumble.
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>
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Bruce Griffis wrote:
> Hope you can fix it! I can't even imagine getting to that level.
Oh I dunno... one day, I couldn't even screw up installing shock
absorbers. Now I can screw up transmissions. Progress!
Seriously -- persistence, and a bit of craziness. Spending your lunch
money on greasy junk parts and repairing them for no good reason while
everyone around you is embarrassed for your foolishness.
Sounds like you are on your way.
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Adapt the O.D unit to the back of the T4 I have here.
It's got 4-1 first gear, you could drive an 8 speed.... :]
Just kidding, I doubt there is anyway the ratios would work out to be worthwhile at all.
--
Mark Price
Morgantown, WV
1969 AMC Rambler, 4.0L, EFI, T-5
2004 Grand Cherokee Laredo, 4.7L, Quadratrac II
" I realize that death is inevitable.
I just don't want to be around when it happens! "
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Tom Jennings
> Crap, I lost my 2nd gear synchro! I have no idea how it happened. Never
> crashed it, in/out of gear w/o clutch, I shift slowly enough, etc. No
> warning. Just a gentle downshift at 25 mph or so, GRIND GRIND, clutch in
> Neutral, still grinds. Works OK at rest or if I rev-match.
>
> I neglected to check the mainshaft stack clearance when I assembled it;
> I know it's on the loose side. The 2 - 3 synchro was slow, till is, but
> still works.
>
> Very strange. I assume I screwed something up on assembly. All new
> parts, clean. Too thin oil though, that was a stupid experiment. I dont'
> see how that alone would have done this.
>
> If the brass dogs broke off, they didn't jam anything, so I'll drive it
> carefully, and if it's tolerable, well, I'll just drive it. Shift 1 - 2
> and 2 - 3 are OK, for now anyways.
>
> I know this is not the T-96's fault, but with all the hassles finding
> parts I just may have to lose the Twin Stick -- boo hoo! -- and stick
> something in the hole that's worth the effort. For the money I spent I
> could have bought a good T5 and new adapter!
>
> Part of me hates to not fix it though, it just feels like giving up. I
> hope I have time to mull it over though!
> _______________________________________________
> Amc-list mailing list
> Amc-list at amc-list dot com
> http://splatter.wps.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
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Wrambler242 at comcast dot net wrote:
> Adapt the O.D unit to the back of the T4 I have here.
> It's got 4-1 first gear, you could drive an 8 speed.... :]
>
Oh yeah that would be a lot of fun... shift every 400, 500 rpm!!
Well it didn't jam up on the way to work so screw it, I'll drive it for
now. Certainly I'll fix this transmission, whatever is wrong is
relatively minor.
But the T-96 is the weakest part of this car, performance-wise. Only
partly do I mean drag-strip type performance. It's just a slow wide
geared box. OK the motor's slow, but the transmission holds it back, even.
I may make one tepid attempt to find the T-14 + OD output shaft part,
but maybe not. A T-14 would certainly drop in the hole with just
shifter, driveshaft and speedo changes, all straightforward issues.
But it may be reason to revisit the T-5 in this car over the winter.
Mark, is your T-4 handy? Can you measure the distance from the front
mounting flange to the centerline of the shifter?
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Having worked on those things, I'm with you -- stack clearance seems to be a bit more critical than one would believe! That's the only thing I can think of that would make much difference -- unless the parts themselves are inferior grade materials.
Time to look for a T-14 with OD, or even a T-86 from behind a 232 (V-8 model would have too long an input shaft). Might have to custom make a drive shaft, but that's no big deal. Then you could keep the Twin-Stick.
If you have to ditch the BW OD, maybe think about a T-4 instead of a T-5. Darn! I keep forgetting those things have internal rail shifters!! Maybe a 80s Ford four speed with OD fourth -- might fit the bell housing. If it does you could keep the shifter. Use the three speed shifter for the four forward gears and the lock-out handle for reverse. Wouldn't need a higher geared axle either, since fourth is OD on those trannys. I don't know of any other four speeds with external shift levers that might work. A T-5 might be the best bet...
-----------
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2008 19:41:38 -0700
From: Tom Jennings
Crap, I lost my 2nd gear synchro! I have no idea how it happened. Never
crashed it, in/out of gear w/o clutch, I shift slowly enough, etc. No
warning. Just a gentle downshift at 25 mph or so, GRIND GRIND, clutch in
Neutral, still grinds. Works OK at rest or if I rev-match.
I neglected to check the mainshaft stack clearance when I assembled it;
I know it's on the loose side. The 2 - 3 synchro was slow, till is, but
still works.
I know this is not the T-96's fault, but with all the hassles finding
parts I just may have to lose the Twin Stick -- boo hoo! -- and stick
something in the hole that's worth the effort. For the money I spent I
could have bought a good T5 and new adapter!
--
Frank Swygert
Publisher, "American Motors Cars"
Magazine (AMC)
For all AMC enthusiasts
http://farna.home.att.net/AMC.html
(free download available!)
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Frank Swygert wrote:
> Having worked on those things, I'm with you -- stack clearance seems
> to be a bit more critical than one would believe! That's the only
> thing I can think of that would make much difference -- unless the
> parts themselves are inferior grade materials.
yeah, I eyeballed the clearances, but didn't go the last mile -- which
is a PITA because you need to disassemble and exchange thrust washers of
different thicknesses. Easy -- if you are Borg Warner. Not easy, poor
schmuck in a home shop 50 years later. But I should have done it
(probably, obviously).
Parts were all Borg Warner NOS, cept bearings and seals, quality was not
my problem.
> Time to look for a T-14 with OD, or even a T-86 from behind a 232
> (V-8 model would have too long an input shaft). Might have to custom
> make a drive shaft, but that's no big deal. Then you could keep the
> Twin-Stick.
Well, I will fix this trans. It's immaculate otherwise, and since it
shifts smoothly otherwise, makes zero noise, doesn't leak, etc it's
otherwise as good as new. Just a PITA!!!
>
> If you have to ditch the BW OD, maybe think about a T-4 instead of a
> T-5. Darn! I keep forgetting those things have internal rail
> shifters!!
Depends on whether the shifter comes up in the middle of the seat. Car's
so small inside, it for sure won't appear under the dashboard!
> Maybe a 80s Ford four speed with OD fourth -- might fit
> the bell housing.
I'm on (but inactive) on a Ford six forum, those peeps would know what
transmissions would fit in the Ford T-96 hole, I bet. I'm sure they love
the T-96 as much as we do.
I hate to lose the Twin Stick though!
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The rebuild kit I bought for the T5 in the Javelin came with three or four
of those "thrust washers". None of them allowed for the correct amount of
end play the T5 needed. I took the washers to the local machine shop and
they surface ground one of them so I could assemble it with another one and
end up with the correct end play. I used I dial indicator to determine the
end play needed. So far the T5 works great. (crossed his fingers here).
Is this what you should have done during the assembly of the T96?
Armand
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Jennings"
To: "AMC/Rambler owners, drivers and fans."
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 3:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Amc-list] T-96 woes (again)
> Frank Swygert wrote:
> > Having worked on those things, I'm with you -- stack clearance seems
> > to be a bit more critical than one would believe! That's the only
> > thing I can think of that would make much difference -- unless the
> > parts themselves are inferior grade materials.
>
> yeah, I eyeballed the clearances, but didn't go the last mile -- which
> is a PITA because you need to disassemble and exchange thrust washers of
> different thicknesses. Easy -- if you are Borg Warner. Not easy, poor
> schmuck in a home shop 50 years later. But I should have done it
> (probably, obviously).
>
> Parts were all Borg Warner NOS, cept bearings and seals, quality was not
> my problem.
>
>
> > Time to look for a T-14 with OD, or even a T-86 from behind a 232
> > (V-8 model would have too long an input shaft). Might have to custom
> > make a drive shaft, but that's no big deal. Then you could keep the
> > Twin-Stick.
>
> Well, I will fix this trans. It's immaculate otherwise, and since it
> shifts smoothly otherwise, makes zero noise, doesn't leak, etc it's
> otherwise as good as new. Just a PITA!!!
>
> >
> > If you have to ditch the BW OD, maybe think about a T-4 instead of a
> > T-5. Darn! I keep forgetting those things have internal rail
> > shifters!!
>
> Depends on whether the shifter comes up in the middle of the seat. Car's
> so small inside, it for sure won't appear under the dashboard!
>
>
> > Maybe a 80s Ford four speed with OD fourth -- might fit
> > the bell housing.
>
> I'm on (but inactive) on a Ford six forum, those peeps would know what
> transmissions would fit in the Ford T-96 hole, I bet. I'm sure they love
> the T-96 as much as we do.
>
> I hate to lose the Twin Stick though!
> _______________________________________________
> Amc-list mailing list
> Amc-list at amc-list dot com
> http://splatter.wps.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.6.4/1616 - Release Date: 8/16/08
5:12 PM
>
>
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Armand Eshleman wrote:
> The rebuild kit I bought for the T5 in the Javelin came with three or four
> of those "thrust washers". None of them allowed for the correct amount of
> end play the T5 needed. I took the washers to the local machine shop and
> they surface ground one of them so I could assemble it with another one and
> end up with the correct end play. I used I dial indicator to determine the
> end play needed. So far the T5 works great. (crossed his fingers here).
>
> Is this what you should have done during the assembly of the T96?
Grumble, don't rub it in :-)
Yep, and now I get to do it after! Emailing Frank I think he's right,
one of the little spring-loaded dogs fell out, the synchro is spinning,
and it's a crap shot where they land when the fall out -- like jam the
slider so it's stuck in 2 or 3. So I won't drive it til I yank it and look.
The shimming itself isn't that hard (like you did, dial indicator and
pry-load the stack one way then the other, determine optimum and
buy/make shim).
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For T5's 5speeds.com makes a layered shim to set preload, you just peel off layers till you get it right.
Not sure how good it works in practice though.
--
Mark Price
Morgantown, WV
1969 AMC Rambler, 4.0L, EFI, T-5
2004 Grand Cherokee Laredo, 4.7L, Quadratrac II
" I realize that death is inevitable.
I just don't want to be around when it happens! "
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Tom Jennings
> Armand Eshleman wrote:
> > The rebuild kit I bought for the T5 in the Javelin came with three or four
> > of those "thrust washers". None of them allowed for the correct amount of
> > end play the T5 needed. I took the washers to the local machine shop and
> > they surface ground one of them so I could assemble it with another one and
> > end up with the correct end play. I used I dial indicator to determine the
> > end play needed. So far the T5 works great. (crossed his fingers here).
> >
> > Is this what you should have done during the assembly of the T96?
>
>
> Grumble, don't rub it in :-)
>
> Yep, and now I get to do it after! Emailing Frank I think he's right,
> one of the little spring-loaded dogs fell out, the synchro is spinning,
> and it's a crap shot where they land when the fall out -- like jam the
> slider so it's stuck in 2 or 3. So I won't drive it til I yank it and look.
>
> The shimming itself isn't that hard (like you did, dial indicator and
> pry-load the stack one way then the other, determine optimum and
> buy/make shim).
> _______________________________________________
> Amc-list mailing list
> Amc-list at amc-list dot com
> http://splatter.wps.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
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Armand,
Who'd you use for your T5 kit?
Someday I got to get mine together.
--
Mark Price
Morgantown, WV
1969 AMC Rambler, 4.0L, EFI, T-5
2004 Grand Cherokee Laredo, 4.7L, Quadratrac II
" I realize that death is inevitable.
I just don't want to be around when it happens! "
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Armand Eshleman"
> The rebuild kit I bought for the T5 in the Javelin came with three or four
> of those "thrust washers". None of them allowed for the correct amount of
> end play the T5 needed. I took the washers to the local machine shop and
> they surface ground one of them so I could assemble it with another one and
> end up with the correct end play. I used I dial indicator to determine the
> end play needed. So far the T5 works great. (crossed his fingers here).
>
> Is this what you should have done during the assembly of the T96?
>
> Armand
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tom Jennings"
> To: "AMC/Rambler owners, drivers and fans."
> Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 3:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [Amc-list] T-96 woes (again)
>
>
> > Frank Swygert wrote:
> > > Having worked on those things, I'm with you -- stack clearance seems
> > > to be a bit more critical than one would believe! That's the only
> > > thing I can think of that would make much difference -- unless the
> > > parts themselves are inferior grade materials.
> >
> > yeah, I eyeballed the clearances, but didn't go the last mile -- which
> > is a PITA because you need to disassemble and exchange thrust washers of
> > different thicknesses. Easy -- if you are Borg Warner. Not easy, poor
> > schmuck in a home shop 50 years later. But I should have done it
> > (probably, obviously).
> >
> > Parts were all Borg Warner NOS, cept bearings and seals, quality was not
> > my problem.
> >
> >
> > > Time to look for a T-14 with OD, or even a T-86 from behind a 232
> > > (V-8 model would have too long an input shaft). Might have to custom
> > > make a drive shaft, but that's no big deal. Then you could keep the
> > > Twin-Stick.
> >
> > Well, I will fix this trans. It's immaculate otherwise, and since it
> > shifts smoothly otherwise, makes zero noise, doesn't leak, etc it's
> > otherwise as good as new. Just a PITA!!!
> >
> > >
> > > If you have to ditch the BW OD, maybe think about a T-4 instead of a
> > > T-5. Darn! I keep forgetting those things have internal rail
> > > shifters!!
> >
> > Depends on whether the shifter comes up in the middle of the seat. Car's
> > so small inside, it for sure won't appear under the dashboard!
> >
> >
> > > Maybe a 80s Ford four speed with OD fourth -- might fit
> > > the bell housing.
> >
> > I'm on (but inactive) on a Ford six forum, those peeps would know what
> > transmissions would fit in the Ford T-96 hole, I bet. I'm sure they love
> > the T-96 as much as we do.
> >
> > I hate to lose the Twin Stick though!
> > _______________________________________________
> > Amc-list mailing list
> > Amc-list at amc-list dot com
> > http://splatter.wps.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG.
> > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.6.4/1616 - Release Date: 8/16/08
> 5:12 PM
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
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Yeah it's handy, i'll try and get to it this evening.
Wife and the remaining child that lives at home are away this week!!!
It's been years since I was home alone for more than a few hours.
So far It is quite nice. I was supposed to go down to the lake with them a few evenings after work, but gee, work is so pressing right now. I don't think I'll make it... :]
--
Mark Price
Morgantown, WV
1969 AMC Rambler, 4.0L, EFI, T-5
2004 Grand Cherokee Laredo, 4.7L, Quadratrac II
" I realize that death is inevitable.
I just don't want to be around when it happens! "
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Tom Jennings
>
> Mark, is your T-4 handy? Can you measure the distance from the front
> mounting flange to the centerline of the shifter?
> _______________________________________________
> Amc-list mailing list
> Amc-list at amc-list dot com
> http://splatter.wps.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
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Tom,
I apologize, I wasn't trying to make you feel worse about the situation. I
know how you feel. I've been there done that and learned the hard way more
than once. It would seem that sometimes without a good friend looking over
our shoulder we sometimes let that nasty bit of "Rambler" mentality seep to
the top of our thought patterns, and before we can get rid of it, it's taken
over and DANG there goes the farm.....................
Actually I am very lucky to have all you guys on this list who are more than
happy to look over my shoulder and tell me not to take the cheap easy route
because it almost always ends up in disaster. Now if I can just get the
rambler mentality to release me so I remember to ask the
questions...........
Best of luck with it Tom.
Armand
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Jennings"
To: "AMC/Rambler owners, drivers and fans."
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 11:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Amc-list] T-96 woes (again)
> Armand Eshleman wrote:
> > The rebuild kit I bought for the T5 in the Javelin came with three or
four
> > of those "thrust washers". None of them allowed for the correct amount
of
> > end play the T5 needed. I took the washers to the local machine shop and
> > they surface ground one of them so I could assemble it with another one
and
> > end up with the correct end play. I used I dial indicator to determine
the
> > end play needed. So far the T5 works great. (crossed his fingers here).
> >
> > Is this what you should have done during the assembly of the T96?
>
>
> Grumble, don't rub it in :-)
>
> Yep, and now I get to do it after! Emailing Frank I think he's right,
> one of the little spring-loaded dogs fell out, the synchro is spinning,
> and it's a crap shot where they land when the fall out -- like jam the
> slider so it's stuck in 2 or 3. So I won't drive it til I yank it and
look.
>
> The shimming itself isn't that hard (like you did, dial indicator and
> pry-load the stack one way then the other, determine optimum and
> buy/make shim).
> _______________________________________________
> Amc-list mailing list
> Amc-list at amc-list dot com
> http://splatter.wps.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.6.5/1618 - Release Date: 8/18/08
6:51 AM
>
>
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Mark,
I got the rebuild kit and a video of how to do the rebuild from Hanlon
Motorsports http://www.hanlonmotorsports.com/
I believe the guys first name is Dave. He is very friendly and will answer
your questions. The video was flawless in helping me assemble the T5. Hanlon
is located in Pennsylvania.
Armand
----- Original Message -----
From:
To: "AMC/Rambler owners, drivers and fans."
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: [Amc-list] T-96 woes (again)
> Armand,
> Who'd you use for your T5 kit?
> Someday I got to get mine together.
>
> --
> Mark Price
> Morgantown, WV
> 1969 AMC Rambler, 4.0L, EFI, T-5
> 2004 Grand Cherokee Laredo, 4.7L, Quadratrac II
> " I realize that death is inevitable.
> I just don't want to be around when it happens! "
>
> -------------- Original message ----------------------
> From: "Armand Eshleman"
> > The rebuild kit I bought for the T5 in the Javelin came with three or
four
> > of those "thrust washers". None of them allowed for the correct amount
of
> > end play the T5 needed. I took the washers to the local machine shop and
> > they surface ground one of them so I could assemble it with another one
and
> > end up with the correct end play. I used I dial indicator to determine
the
> > end play needed. So far the T5 works great. (crossed his fingers here).
> >
> > Is this what you should have done during the assembly of the T96?
> >
> > Armand
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Tom Jennings"
> > To: "AMC/Rambler owners, drivers and fans."
> > Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 3:54 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Amc-list] T-96 woes (again)
> >
> >
> > > Frank Swygert wrote:
> > > > Having worked on those things, I'm with you -- stack clearance seems
> > > > to be a bit more critical than one would believe! That's the only
> > > > thing I can think of that would make much difference -- unless the
> > > > parts themselves are inferior grade materials.
> > >
> > > yeah, I eyeballed the clearances, but didn't go the last mile -- which
> > > is a PITA because you need to disassemble and exchange thrust washers
of
> > > different thicknesses. Easy -- if you are Borg Warner. Not easy, poor
> > > schmuck in a home shop 50 years later. But I should have done it
> > > (probably, obviously).
> > >
> > > Parts were all Borg Warner NOS, cept bearings and seals, quality was
not
> > > my problem.
> > >
> > >
> > > > Time to look for a T-14 with OD, or even a T-86 from behind a 232
> > > > (V-8 model would have too long an input shaft). Might have to custom
> > > > make a drive shaft, but that's no big deal. Then you could keep the
> > > > Twin-Stick.
> > >
> > > Well, I will fix this trans. It's immaculate otherwise, and since it
> > > shifts smoothly otherwise, makes zero noise, doesn't leak, etc it's
> > > otherwise as good as new. Just a PITA!!!
> > >
> > > >
> > > > If you have to ditch the BW OD, maybe think about a T-4 instead of a
> > > > T-5. Darn! I keep forgetting those things have internal rail
> > > > shifters!!
> > >
> > > Depends on whether the shifter comes up in the middle of the seat.
Car's
> > > so small inside, it for sure won't appear under the dashboard!
> > >
> > >
> > > > Maybe a 80s Ford four speed with OD fourth -- might fit
> > > > the bell housing.
> > >
> > > I'm on (but inactive) on a Ford six forum, those peeps would know what
> > > transmissions would fit in the Ford T-96 hole, I bet. I'm sure they
love
> > > the T-96 as much as we do.
> > >
> > > I hate to lose the Twin Stick though!
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Amc-list mailing list
> > > Amc-list at amc-list dot com
> > > http://splatter.wps.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > Checked by AVG.
> > > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.6.4/1616 - Release Date:
8/16/08
> > 5:12 PM
> > >
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Amc-list mailing list
> > Amc-list at amc-list dot com
> > http://splatter.wps.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
>
> _______________________________________________
> Amc-list mailing list
> Amc-list at amc-list dot com
> http://splatter.wps.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.6.5/1618 - Release Date: 8/18/08
6:51 AM
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>
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Nope I think Mr. Hanlon's first name is Bob, dang it I'm not
sure............hate gettin old............
Armand
----- Original Message -----
From:
To: "AMC/Rambler owners, drivers and fans."
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: [Amc-list] T-96 woes (again)
> Armand,
> Who'd you use for your T5 kit?
> Someday I got to get mine together.
>
> --
> Mark Price
> Morgantown, WV
> 1969 AMC Rambler, 4.0L, EFI, T-5
> 2004 Grand Cherokee Laredo, 4.7L, Quadratrac II
> " I realize that death is inevitable.
> I just don't want to be around when it happens! "
>
> -------------- Original message ----------------------
> From: "Armand Eshleman"
> > The rebuild kit I bought for the T5 in the Javelin came with three or
four
> > of those "thrust washers". None of them allowed for the correct amount
of
> > end play the T5 needed. I took the washers to the local machine shop and
> > they surface ground one of them so I could assemble it with another one
and
> > end up with the correct end play. I used I dial indicator to determine
the
> > end play needed. So far the T5 works great. (crossed his fingers here).
> >
> > Is this what you should have done during the assembly of the T96?
> >
> > Armand
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Tom Jennings"
> > To: "AMC/Rambler owners, drivers and fans."
> > Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 3:54 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Amc-list] T-96 woes (again)
> >
> >
> > > Frank Swygert wrote:
> > > > Having worked on those things, I'm with you -- stack clearance seems
> > > > to be a bit more critical than one would believe! That's the only
> > > > thing I can think of that would make much difference -- unless the
> > > > parts themselves are inferior grade materials.
> > >
> > > yeah, I eyeballed the clearances, but didn't go the last mile -- which
> > > is a PITA because you need to disassemble and exchange thrust washers
of
> > > different thicknesses. Easy -- if you are Borg Warner. Not easy, poor
> > > schmuck in a home shop 50 years later. But I should have done it
> > > (probably, obviously).
> > >
> > > Parts were all Borg Warner NOS, cept bearings and seals, quality was
not
> > > my problem.
> > >
> > >
> > > > Time to look for a T-14 with OD, or even a T-86 from behind a 232
> > > > (V-8 model would have too long an input shaft). Might have to custom
> > > > make a drive shaft, but that's no big deal. Then you could keep the
> > > > Twin-Stick.
> > >
> > > Well, I will fix this trans. It's immaculate otherwise, and since it
> > > shifts smoothly otherwise, makes zero noise, doesn't leak, etc it's
> > > otherwise as good as new. Just a PITA!!!
> > >
> > > >
> > > > If you have to ditch the BW OD, maybe think about a T-4 instead of a
> > > > T-5. Darn! I keep forgetting those things have internal rail
> > > > shifters!!
> > >
> > > Depends on whether the shifter comes up in the middle of the seat.
Car's
> > > so small inside, it for sure won't appear under the dashboard!
> > >
> > >
> > > > Maybe a 80s Ford four speed with OD fourth -- might fit
> > > > the bell housing.
> > >
> > > I'm on (but inactive) on a Ford six forum, those peeps would know what
> > > transmissions would fit in the Ford T-96 hole, I bet. I'm sure they
love
> > > the T-96 as much as we do.
> > >
> > > I hate to lose the Twin Stick though!
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Amc-list mailing list
> > > Amc-list at amc-list dot com
> > > http://splatter.wps.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > Checked by AVG.
> > > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.6.4/1616 - Release Date:
8/16/08
> > 5:12 PM
> > >
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Amc-list mailing list
> > Amc-list at amc-list dot com
> > http://splatter.wps.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
>
> _______________________________________________
> Amc-list mailing list
> Amc-list at amc-list dot com
> http://splatter.wps.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.6.5/1618 - Release Date: 8/18/08
6:51 AM
>
>
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Armand Eshleman wrote:
> I apologize, I wasn't trying to make you feel worse about the situation.
Oh no, you didn't, no problemo. I was just grousing at my own folly!
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Thanks!
--
Mark Price
Morgantown, WV
1969 AMC Rambler, 4.0L, EFI, T-5
2004 Grand Cherokee Laredo, 4.7L, Quadratrac II
" I realize that death is inevitable.
I just don't want to be around when it happens! "
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Armand Eshleman"
> Mark,
>
> I got the rebuild kit and a video of how to do the rebuild from Hanlon
> Motorsports http://www.hanlonmotorsports.com/
> I believe the guys first name is Dave. He is very friendly and will answer
> your questions. The video was flawless in helping me assemble the T5. Hanlon
> is located in Pennsylvania.
> Armand
> ----- Original Message -----
> From:
> To: "AMC/Rambler owners, drivers and fans."
> Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 9:33 AM
> Subject: Re: [Amc-list] T-96 woes (again)
>
>
> > Armand,
> > Who'd you use for your T5 kit?
> > Someday I got to get mine together.
> >
> > --
> > Mark Price
> > Morgantown, WV
> > 1969 AMC Rambler, 4.0L, EFI, T-5
> > 2004 Grand Cherokee Laredo, 4.7L, Quadratrac II
> > " I realize that death is inevitable.
> > I just don't want to be around when it happens! "
> >
> > -------------- Original message ----------------------
> > From: "Armand Eshleman"
> > > The rebuild kit I bought for the T5 in the Javelin came with three or
> four
> > > of those "thrust washers". None of them allowed for the correct amount
> of
> > > end play the T5 needed. I took the washers to the local machine shop and
> > > they surface ground one of them so I could assemble it with another one
> and
> > > end up with the correct end play. I used I dial indicator to determine
> the
> > > end play needed. So far the T5 works great. (crossed his fingers here).
> > >
> > > Is this what you should have done during the assembly of the T96?
> > >
> > > Armand
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Tom Jennings"
> > > To: "AMC/Rambler owners, drivers and fans."
> > > Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 3:54 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Amc-list] T-96 woes (again)
> > >
> > >
> > > > Frank Swygert wrote:
> > > > > Having worked on those things, I'm with you -- stack clearance seems
> > > > > to be a bit more critical than one would believe! That's the only
> > > > > thing I can think of that would make much difference -- unless the
> > > > > parts themselves are inferior grade materials.
> > > >
> > > > yeah, I eyeballed the clearances, but didn't go the last mile -- which
> > > > is a PITA because you need to disassemble and exchange thrust washers
> of
> > > > different thicknesses. Easy -- if you are Borg Warner. Not easy, poor
> > > > schmuck in a home shop 50 years later. But I should have done it
> > > > (probably, obviously).
> > > >
> > > > Parts were all Borg Warner NOS, cept bearings and seals, quality was
> not
> > > > my problem.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Time to look for a T-14 with OD, or even a T-86 from behind a 232
> > > > > (V-8 model would have too long an input shaft). Might have to custom
> > > > > make a drive shaft, but that's no big deal. Then you could keep the
> > > > > Twin-Stick.
> > > >
> > > > Well, I will fix this trans. It's immaculate otherwise, and since it
> > > > shifts smoothly otherwise, makes zero noise, doesn't leak, etc it's
> > > > otherwise as good as new. Just a PITA!!!
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > If you have to ditch the BW OD, maybe think about a T-4 instead of a
> > > > > T-5. Darn! I keep forgetting those things have internal rail
> > > > > shifters!!
> > > >
> > > > Depends on whether the shifter comes up in the middle of the seat.
> Car's
> > > > so small inside, it for sure won't appear under the dashboard!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Maybe a 80s Ford four speed with OD fourth -- might fit
> > > > > the bell housing.
> > > >
> > > > I'm on (but inactive) on a Ford six forum, those peeps would know what
> > > > transmissions would fit in the Ford T-96 hole, I bet. I'm sure they
> love
> > > > the T-96 as much as we do.
> > > >
> > > > I hate to lose the Twin Stick though!
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Amc-list mailing list
> > > > Amc-list at amc-list dot com
> > > > http://splatter.wps.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > > Checked by AVG.
> > > > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.6.4/1616 - Release Date:
> 8/16/08
> > > 5:12 PM
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Amc-list mailing list
> > > Amc-list at amc-list dot com
> > > http://splatter.wps.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Amc-list mailing list
> > Amc-list at amc-list dot com
> > http://splatter.wps.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG.
> > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.6.5/1618 - Release Date: 8/18/08
> 6:51 AM
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Amc-list at amc-list dot com
> http://splatter.wps.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
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Welp I got the spare T-96+OD into pieces (that part somehow is never
that hard :-) and off to the local shop for hot-tanking. Except the
rollers and delicate stuff I'll do myself.
Main and clutch shafts and rollers are all good. In fact this trans
looks really nice inside, no chipped teeth, friction rings good. After
cleaning I'm gonna dip it in a solvent+oil mix, let dry, and bag and
label the parts I don't use.
It came out of a Classic, I think, and was definitely not Twin Stick
(underdash cable came with). If so, I'm probably gonna swap in the
non-T.S. 2nd gear ratio. The big 2-3 spread sounds great, but it's
actually a pain to drive in town, where you do a lot of 2 - 3 shifts.
I'm always reaching the revs up to pull a lazy 3rd gear. Tiring. Yeah,
split 2nd will be useless, but except for showing off it's not much use.
I may keep it depending on my laziness factor on assembly day; do I
*really* feel like pulling out the countershaft?!
I am still not satisfied I found out why it failed, and this makes me
really nervous. At this point I'd be GLAD to find out I was a complete
ass assembling it. Then I could avoid it!
But I have some things to check, like, how much clearance is there when
the clutch shaft is pressed inward? (Against the installed front bearing
and circlips vs. no circlip). WHat does it take to make the clutch shaft
contact the mainshaft? I'm assuming that the rollers themselves take the
inward force, then the ends grind down and ruin everythign. But I really
just don't know.
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Don't be to hard on yourself. I got a doctor wandering around not sure why my shoulder still hurts.
I suspect the same, "why did this fail" thoughts go through his head ever time I walk in his office!
I got a handful of shrinker/stretcher tools here or on the way, maybe we can try em on my shoulder and you trans!!!
i bought a new one from Harborfright and turned around Friday night and bough two more off of evilbay!
Don't know what the weather is out there but we is saultry roasting weather. 85* and 100% humidity plus 40mph wind gusts, We had the perfect setup Rain from a nother front moved in early and settled in for the weekend, now, ike is joining inadding 40moh winds and rain.
My niece in houston spent the day replanting all of this years plantings that cama up rooted.
They've been told a week till they get power, at least their home is fine, Brick on a slab. new construction with a hurricane closet where the huunkered down with the dog and whated for 7 hours.
--They say the have gas to their stove and hotwater heater a gas grill an unperishable food e
Sound like to me all the need is a Natural gas generator
and they'd be living on easy street!
zdon't mind the typing.
I mowed today and my sinusis are in shambles.took Tylenol -PM as it has benedryl in it.
Too 10mg of ambien to help me sleep later.
it all kicked in a bit quickler than I expected.
Now where did i put those jeep keys.
I wantta go fo ra ride and see if i rememeber it or if i can figure out why I wake up in jail!!!
Mark Price
Morgantown, WV
1969 AMC Rambler, 4.0L, EFI, T-5
2004 Grand Cherokee Laredo, 4.7L, Quadratrac II
" I realize that death is inevitable.
I just don't want to be around when it happens! "
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Tom Jennings
> Welp I got the spare T-96+OD into pieces (that part somehow is never
> that hard :-) and off to the local shop for hot-tanking. Except the
> rollers and delicate stuff I'll do myself.
>
> Main and clutch shafts and rollers are all good. In fact this trans
> looks really nice inside, no chipped teeth, friction rings good. After
> cleaning I'm gonna dip it in a solvent+oil mix, let dry, and bag and
> label the parts I don't use.
>
> It came out of a Classic, I think, and was definitely not Twin Stick
> (underdash cable came with). If so, I'm probably gonna swap in the
> non-T.S. 2nd gear ratio. The big 2-3 spread sounds great, but it's
> actually a pain to drive in town, where you do a lot of 2 - 3 shifts.
> I'm always reaching the revs up to pull a lazy 3rd gear. Tiring. Yeah,
> split 2nd will be useless, but except for showing off it's not much use.
>
> I may keep it depending on my laziness factor on assembly day; do I
> *really* feel like pulling out the countershaft?!
>
>
>
> I am still not satisfied I found out why it failed, and this makes me
> really nervous. At this point I'd be GLAD to find out I was a complete
> ass assembling it. Then I could avoid it!
>
> But I have some things to check, like, how much clearance is there when
> the clutch shaft is pressed inward? (Against the installed front bearing
> and circlips vs. no circlip). WHat does it take to make the clutch shaft
> contact the mainshaft? I'm assuming that the rollers themselves take the
> inward force, then the ends grind down and ruin everythign. But I really
> just don't know.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Amc-list mailing list
> Amc-list at amc-list dot com
> http://splatter.wps.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
_______________________________________________
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I agree with Mark, Tom. Don't be so hard on yourself. You're one of the most meticulous mechanics I know. Although I haven't ridden with you I'm sure you didn't abuse the transmission either. It might be good to see if you can find an old-timer who worked on those trannies and get his input. That's the only thing I can suggest except to be as objective as possible and double check you work.
Joe Fulton
> From: Tom Jennings
> Subject: Re: [Amc-list] T-96 woes (again)
> To: "AMC/Rambler owners, drivers and fans."
> Date: Sunday, September 14, 2008, 4:41 PM
still not satisfied I found out why it failed, and
> this makes me
> really nervous. At this point I'd be GLAD to find out I
> was a complete
> ass assembling it. Then I could avoid it!
>
> But I have some things to check, like, how much clearance
> is there when
> the clutch shaft is pressed inward? (Against the installed
> front bearing
> and circlips vs. no circlip). WHat does it take to make the
> clutch shaft
> contact the mainshaft? I'm assuming that the rollers
> themselves take the
> inward force, then the ends grind down and ruin everythign.
> But I really
> just don't know.
>
>
_______________________________________________
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Amc-list at amc-list dot com
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> I got a handful of shrinker/stretcher tools here or on the way, maybe we can try em on my shoulder and you trans!!!
> i bought a new one from Harborfright and turned around Friday night and bough two more off of evilbay!
I can't even find the time to bolt our throatless shear to a table!
First class is in two weeks and I'm not prepared. I'm student and staff
and teaching this quarter. I dread it. Found the lathe has a bum
carriage screw, curriculum rewrites, and two of my classes end at 10pm
then I have an hour ride home.
Rambler content? None.
Though I dream of my drifting away... Navarro motor project. I'm slowly
thinking that a '64 American, stripped to a clean streetable shell,
original faded paint etc that looks 60's racer-ish but is chassis setup
for autocross, with, in old-fashioned sign painter's lettering of that
"FABULOUS HUDSON!" 50's style, that says across the side,
RAMBLER
Mentality
Seriously, like a sponsor or car pet name. With a 199ci with scary turbo
sticking out. Maybe no back seat and a 4 or 6 point cage.
That might be the right context for this motor. Instead of a hot rod
type chassis. It's appropriate for the motor, 300 - 400hp in that
chassis would be nothing to laugh at. And it would be cheap to make!
> Don't know what the weather is out there but we is saultry roasting weather. 85* and 100% humidity plus 40mph wind gusts, We had the perfect setup Rain from a nother front moved in early and settled in for the weekend, now, ike is joining inadding 40moh winds and rain.
Fall done fell in it's usual way here -- one mornin it was overcast til
10, 11 am. Cooler, like 80's then 70's. This will increase (overcast
later and later) til it rains. That's winter. Then it reverses. That's
spring.
> Sound like to me all the need is a Natural gas generator
> and they'd be living on easy street!
Beans?
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Joe Fulton wrote:
> I agree with Mark, Tom. Don't be so hard on yourself.
Thanks for the kind words! Nahh, I'm over being mad, that lasted a day
or two... :-) I just wanna find the problem so I don't repeat it! I'll
look for ways the clutch shaft could have got misaligned or jammed or
side-loaded or whatever.
The only thing I can think of that WOULD be bad would be if there was
some obstruction in the crank pilot hole that put inward pressure on the
clutch shaft etc. But I can stick a foam peanut in there, install the
trans, pull it out, and guage it's crushed depth. Then just stick some
grease in the hole and let it rot away.
I have no idea what that depth ought to be, but I can't see less than
10, 20 thousands, maybe 100? is right?
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Welcome to the darkside of higher education my friend!!!
Long hours, frustration, driving home at 2:00am wound up from a long day.
To wound up to sleep, a bottle of whiskey and some jalepeno cheese helps some nights! :]
Not so much the next morning...
My throatless shear is not bolted down yet either.
I been pulling up every folder I can scrounge for a foot operated stand for the shrinker stretchers.
Bought this used pair, look like HF returns, off of Taddswholesale on evilbay. Cost me $52.75 total for the pair.
Half what I paid for one new one. Can't decide if I will return the new one or just sit on it till I've mapped out what bodies and dies work the best.
I got 90% of the stand mapped out in my mind. even have the steel. Should get started tomorrow night, unless one more thing comes up...
--
Mark Price
Morgantown, WV
1969 AMC Rambler, 4.0L, EFI, T-5
2004 Grand Cherokee Laredo, 4.7L, Quadratrac II
" I realize that death is inevitable.
I just don't want to be around when it happens! "
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Tom Jennings
> I can't even find the time to bolt our throatless shear to a table!
> First class is in two weeks and I'm not prepared. I'm student and staff
> and teaching this quarter. I dread it. Found the lathe has a bum
> carriage screw, curriculum rewrites, and two of my classes end at 10pm
> then I have an hour ride home.
_______________________________________________
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> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 15:43:24 -0700
> From: Tom Jennings
> Subject: Re: [Amc-list] T-96 woes (again)
> To: "AMC/Rambler owners, drivers and fans."
> Message-ID: <48CEE50C.9040906@wps.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>
>
> Joe Fulton wrote:
>
>> I agree with Mark, Tom. Don't be so hard on yourself.
>>
>
> Thanks for the kind words! Nahh, I'm over being mad, that lasted a day
> or two... :-) I just wanna find the problem so I don't repeat it! I'll
> look for ways the clutch shaft could have got misaligned or jammed or
> side-loaded or whatever.
>
> The only thing I can think of that WOULD be bad would be if there was
> some obstruction in the crank pilot hole that put inward pressure on the
> clutch shaft etc. But I can stick a foam peanut in there, install the
> trans, pull it out, and guage it's crushed depth. Then just stick some
> grease in the hole and let it rot away.
>
> I have no idea what that depth ought to be, but I can't see less than
> 10, 20 thousands, maybe 100? is right?
>
>
>
Perhaps the crank is moving reward.
Peter Marano
Kenosha WI
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Peter Marano wrote:
> Perhaps the crank is moving reward.
Woah, that's no fun to think about!!
I will look for evidence of this -- but the trans was OK until I rebuilt
it, then 1000 miles later (2000?) it did this business. It's an old car,
and you're right in that I should look for other evidence!
The harmonic balancers on these motors have been known to fall apart, I
don't know how it's constructed, maybe I can see if it's shifting around
(shiny spot).
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Tom,
I think I gave you a couple of motor side cover plates with that sheet metal for the 196 you picked up. I might need one of them back if it has the small opening to attach the PCV valve hose. I have an older type side plate which has the large hose to replace the old road draft tube. Can you check to see which one I gave you? I'll check around here in my parts stash tomorrow, but I might need to find one with the hose attachment (about 1/2 to 3/4 inch hose). I can modify one if I can't come up with one though.
Regards,
Joe Fulton
--- On Mon, 9/15/08, Tom Jennings wrote:
> From: Tom Jennings
> Subject: Re: [Amc-list] T-96 woes (again)
> To: "AMC/Rambler owners, drivers and fans."
> Date: Monday, September 15, 2008, 3:43 PM
> Joe Fulton wrote:
> > I agree with Mark, Tom. Don't be so hard on
> yourself.
>
> Thanks for the kind words! Nahh, I'm over being mad,
> that lasted a day
> or two... :-) I just wanna find the problem so I don't
> repeat it! I'll
> look for ways the clutch shaft could have got misaligned or
> jammed or
> side-loaded or whatever.
>
> The only thing I can think of that WOULD be bad would be if
> there was
> some obstruction in the crank pilot hole that put inward
> pressure on the
> clutch shaft etc. But I can stick a foam peanut in there,
> install the
> trans, pull it out, and guage it's crushed depth. Then
> just stick some
> grease in the hole and let it rot away.
>
> I have no idea what that depth ought to be, but I can't
> see less than
> 10, 20 thousands, maybe 100? is right?
> _______________________________________________
> Amc-list mailing list
> Amc-list at amc-list dot com
> http://splatter.wps.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
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Oops didn't mean that to go to the list.
Joe
--- On Tue, 9/16/08, Joe Fulton wrote:
> From: Joe Fulton
> Subject: [Amc-list] 196 PCV
> To: "AMC/Rambler owners, drivers and fans."
> Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 8:26 PM
> Tom,
>
> I think I gave you a couple of motor side cover plates with
> that sheet metal for the 196 you picked up. I might need
> one of them back if it has the small opening to attach the
> PCV valve hose. I have an older type side plate which has
> the large hose to replace the old road draft tube. Can you
> check to see which one I gave you? I'll check around
> here in my parts stash tomorrow, but I might need to find
> one with the hose attachment (about 1/2 to 3/4 inch hose).
> I can modify one if I can't come up with one though.
>
> Regards,
> Joe Fulton
>
>
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No problemo -- I know what it looks like, I have one on the car. If it's
in the pile it's yours. I'll mail it back ASAP.
Joe Fulton wrote:
> Tom,
>
> I think I gave you a couple of motor side cover plates with that sheet metal for the 196 you picked up. I might need one of them back if it has the small opening to attach the PCV valve hose. I have an older type side plate which has the large hose to replace the old road draft tube. Can you check to see which one I gave you? I'll check around here in my parts stash tomorrow, but I might need to find one with the hose attachment (about 1/2 to 3/4 inch hose). I can modify one if I can't come up with one though.
>
> Regards,
> Joe Fulton
>
>
> --- On Mon, 9/15/08, Tom Jennings wrote:
>
>> From: Tom Jennings
>> Subject: Re: [Amc-list] T-96 woes (again)
>> To: "AMC/Rambler owners, drivers and fans."
>> Date: Monday, September 15, 2008, 3:43 PM
>> Joe Fulton wrote:
>>> I agree with Mark, Tom. Don't be so hard on
>> yourself.
>>
>> Thanks for the kind words! Nahh, I'm over being mad,
>> that lasted a day
>> or two... :-) I just wanna find the problem so I don't
>> repeat it! I'll
>> look for ways the clutch shaft could have got misaligned or
>> jammed or
>> side-loaded or whatever.
>>
>> The only thing I can think of that WOULD be bad would be if
>> there was
>> some obstruction in the crank pilot hole that put inward
>> pressure on the
>> clutch shaft etc. But I can stick a foam peanut in there,
>> install the
>> trans, pull it out, and guage it's crushed depth. Then
>> just stick some
>> grease in the hole and let it rot away.
>>
>> I have no idea what that depth ought to be, but I can't
>> see less than
>> 10, 20 thousands, maybe 100? is right?
>> _______________________________________________
>> Amc-list mailing list
>> Amc-list at amc-list dot com
>> http://splatter.wps.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
> _______________________________________________
> Amc-list mailing list
> Amc-list at amc-list dot com
> http://splatter.wps.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
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